I am a wife of a new member and I do not like it. I was just reading the closed “lady gloves” topic and found exactly what a searching wife finds every time she asks a question. We get this pretty rainbow and lolly pops description of what freemasonry is, and as soon as a few feathers are ruffled because she wanted a little more then that, we are shut down. Why can’t we have an adult discussion about this? Give us real answers, not ones that sound like something you have rehearsed and been trained to say when asked certain questions.

Thanks

Dear New Masonic Wife

Thank you for your post.

I don’t believe feathers were ruffled on the last thread.
Why can’t we have an adult disscusion about this? About what? I believe we gave honest answers to questions that were asked. No one is given any rehearsed dialogue. If someone does not want to accept the answers given here I’m afraid they will have to go elsewhere.

All the members here try to be open and honest. We have bios and tell you where we live.

The best I can tell we have had an influx of angry Swedish women who are trying to make things difficult on this Forum. And to be honest, I don’t think it has anything to do with Freemasonry. With all due respect, this Forum is here to help men learn how to become Freemasons, not how to help their wives understand why men are becoming Masons or why women cannot join a Fraternity.

I am not saying these are not topics that somebody might want to discuss, we just don’t discuss them here.

If you have a specific question we will be happy to answer it. “Help women understand” is not really a question.

Bob Heruska
Forum Administrator

I am delighted to give answers to any questions about Freemasonry (and the appendant/concordant bodies). Everything in Masonry, is broadcast to the entire world, in books, and on the internet. Wives of Masons, should be knowledgeable about masonry, because it is an important part of your husband’s life (or at least it should be).

You will find us more than glad to answer any question about Freemasonry.

Brother Martin makes a good point. And I agree.

So I want to apologize for what I said in my last post in this thread. And while it’s true that it’s not the primary purpose of this Forum, I think he is right—it probably is important that a wife of a prospective Mason understand a little about why her husband might want to join Freemasonry. Especially if she is interested.

And as these last two posts reveal, we are happy to answer any questions that could help in that regard. If you’re a prospective Mason, and your wife or future wife has questions, fire away.

What I find interesting on this topic, however (and to perhaps take it a different direction) is the number of single parents—single mothers raising young men—who came to our Open Houses to learn about Freemasonry. One of these mothers said to me, “My son hasn’t had a father influence in his life since he was 5. Besides being intrigued by the “greatness” thing, I want to learn more about Freemasonry because I think it could offer him the opportunity to have male mentors in his life someday.”

That to me was an interesting way to look at the Fraternity. It reminds me of something that Jacob Bronowski said in his seminal work, the Ascent of Man—that one of the reasons we usually wait until adulthood to make important decisions is because we have not yet fully developed our system of values. I certainly believe tha the rituals and teachings of Freemasonry can help shape and expand upon the values we learned as young adults—and it can help us at any stage of our lives to make important decisions. In fact, it’s been said that in many ways Freemasonry IS a system of values.

I sometimes think the fact that we are a Fraternity sometimes gets in the way of what we really learn and what we really do. When I hear a wife say “He’s out with his little frat group” I realize we don’t awlways do a good enough job explaining who we really are to the ones who should be the most aware of it.

Bob Heruska
Boston, MA

In my short time with Masonry I have yet to see anything that makes Freemasonry any more harmful to a marriage than anything else taken to excess.

Some men golf too much.  Some go fishing too much.  Some men drink too much.  Some men are workaholics and never leave work at a consistent time, and when they do they bring it home and continue to neglect their family. 

I suppose it is possible that some men will feel inclined to take on responsibilities in Masonry that will make their wife feel that the marriage is getting neglected.  If this were the case, then I think you should discuss it with your husband the same as you would any of those other source of conflict in your marriage.

There are a plethora of articles online and in books at the bookstore that say a fundamental key to a successful marriage is to have interests unique to each other.  That time “away” from being a couple and developing your own unique interests has shown to be beneficial to both partners in a marriage.  From personal experience in my own relationships, I agree with these articles.

One of our members jokes that his wife encourages him to go to Lodge because it’s the only nights of the week where she gets to control the remote!

Friends,

I have followed the lady glove thread with interest since first joining this forum and was saddened when it took a turn from examining a lovely old tradition and became a mason bashing exercise. I have a couple of points to make for what its worth, and once again I must stress that I am not yet a freemason.

My first point is that a woman who has questions or concerns about her husband’s interest in Freemasonry should receive answers to those questions from her husband. Her husband’s failure or reluctance to provide those answers is not Freemasonry’s failure to be forthright. As Bob has pointed out this most recent disgruntled wife posting did not start with a question, nor do I feel with a genuine curiosity but with an accusation.

Secondly the treatment of this issue by the moderators and posters on this and previous threads requires no apology. In an increasingly politically correct world where everybody’s default setting is defensive I feel it lessens the craft to legitimize the attacks on Freemasonry by disgruntled wives or anyone else who choose to discount the answers they receive because it is not the answer they want.
Freemasonry has existed for hundreds of years largely unchanged and as has been stated on this forum numerous times a man chooses his own level of involvement. If a man is spending a disproportionate amount of time in the lodge or with his brothers than with his wife then, again i say, the problem is not in the lodge but in the home and thats where the solution will be found.

The posting by ladies on this website have a decidedly “why can’t women join” angle and I would say to them that women are unable to join Freemasonry (In regular lodges at least) in the same way that men are unable to join the Red Hat Society or a sorority like Delta Zeta. We should not apologise for this fact my friends as The Red Hat society (which I use only as an example) are certainly unapologetic about their women only policy. I say this not to make a we can’t join your club so you can’t join ours argument but rather to point out that the fact that the Red Hat Society is a women’s only group is an integral part of the group’s identity and purpose. So it is with Freemasonry.

Freemasonry is more than just a society. It is an idea, a map and a goal, honorable, virtuous and sound. In a world in which standards of morality and community continue to erode. Freemasonry stands alone against the tide in its goal to make good men better and by extension improve the lot of all. It requires no apology.

Since women are obviously not welcome here, I will not be bothering you much in the future, I think. But just to try and clarify a little, and state the questions in a better and more constructive way:
- How do you make sure that your prospective candidates have the support of their partner? And does it matter at all?

As far as I can find out - in most American information material it says that this is one of the most important tasks of the “investigating comittee”, to meet the candidate and his partner in their home, to make sure he has this said support and answer any questions (s)he might have. In Scandinavian information material, it says that this is one of the most important tasks of the sponsors (or the proposers) - to meet the wife/partner and make sure she is supportive and answer questions.
I tell you that my personal experience is that these people never bothered to contact me, I don’t even know who they are.
And you tell me that it is the responsibility of my husband to inform me or answer my questions. Then you accuse me of vilifying him and bashing you?
I admit that I think this is bad behaviour and it shows me that masonic practise is rather different from masonic propaganda, and if that is bashing - I do apologize.
Another question: How can a prospective candidate himself answer the questions that his wife might have about freemasonry before he has joined himself? At this stage he presumably knows no more than his wife.

Another thing that baffles me completely about freemasonry. I am told the purpose is human development and “making good men better” or even “great”. How do you accomplish this in a closed atmosphere that half (or more of..)the population is excluded from? In my mind humanity is in this together, and especially within a marriage I would think that human or spiritual development would be one of the most vital things for husband and wife to share.

Or is masonry just an “outside interest”, like one of you seems to think? On par with golfing or drinking too much?
In that case, no wonder your wives talk about your litte “frat club”.

Edit: grammar mistake. English is not my first language, so I do apologize for any I haven’t spotted.

As the most recent posts stated, you are welcome on this Forum.

I know English is not your first language, but I would ask that you take the time to read the posts above again and try to get the spirit of the answers. The references to golf and other interests were made as analogies only—in that those interests can also take a man “away” from his family if done to excess. We stated that if there is a time that a wife thinks only that a man is in something akin to a college fraternity, the man has not done a very good job of explaining what we do to her. A man who becomes a Mason should not have any trouble explaining why he is there or why it is important to him.

The answer to your main question is one that varies from Lodge to Lodge and country to country. Yes, we think it is important that a man have the blessing of his family to become a member. But as one member wrote, there is no requirement from the Lodge to make sure that that a man have his wife’s blessing to join. We ask that a man discuss his decision with his wife, but we are dealing with grown men, and no man is required to bring a note from his partner.. I know in Massachusetts we ask a man if he has discussed his membership—and the time commitments—with his significant other, and sometimes an investigation committee will come to someone’s house to meet the family, but that is most often not the case in my experience.

And you are right that a man certainly could not tell you exactly what is going to happen in the Lodge before he becomes a member—as he hasn’t been there yet. He joins based on the favorable opinion of the Fraternity as he understands it and the men he has met that belong to the Lodge. And as the activities that go on in a Masonic Lodge can really only be understood in the context where they happen, we could not really explain it to you either. You can find the actual ritual online with simple searches, but again, these are out of context, so they will mean very little.

I will say that if a man decides that after he becomes a Mason (or during the initiation itself) that he is not comfortable with any aspect, he is free to leave. Once a Man becomes a Mason, there is nothing forcing him to return. No one is going to drag your husband to a Masonic meeting. A man goes to meetings to learn and improve himself and enjoy the company of like minded men of his own accord.

As to whether a man can learn to better himself and improve his values without women in the room, I believe he can. I believe most Masons believe that. And I think history has shown that many great men were Masons long before they found their greatness. But with all due respect, this is not an answer I believe you are going to accept, and I don’t think any argument we give here is going to convince you otherwise. I would prefer (please) that we not belabour this issue further in this Forum.

I hope that clarifies things a bit. I am sorry that your most pressing issue cannot be dealt with here.  But as most of the members here stated, we are happy to answer any other questions you may have—or the questions any other wives/girlfriends/mothers of potential Masons may have.

Best of luck,

Bob Heruska
Boston, MA

With utmost due respect:
As a Master Mason, I too, see the potential of a disconnect at home from the away from home visits to lodges and other Masonic bodies, rehearsal nights and traveling between jurisdictions. One can be out every night of the week. A new candidate to Masonry is, and should be, unaware of the open architecture of the Masonry commitment. For a family understanding, only several generation Masonic families know that time commitments beforehand. Balance is the key to having an understanding in homelife.

One bond that has opened many doors to strengthen the connection to Lodge and Home has been deeds. Good deeds and the hands on approach that many Masons exhibit to charity give a mission to the time away from home. An example:

The Grand Lodge of Sweden gives:
Grants are distributed from the Board of Benevolence of the Swedish Order of Freemasons, from Lodges and Fraternal Societies and from funds under the jurisdiction of the Swedish Order of Freemasons to a total amount of SEK 19,9 million annually (approx. £ 2,7 million or 1.5MM$).

Donations and grants are distributed in the following main areas:
Scientific research in geriatrics.
Geriatric activities.
Actions against narcotics among young people.
Aid to disabled young people.
Aid to young people adrift.
Donations and scholarships to young artists, writers and artisans.
To name a few.

I have seen the wives of Masons assist the Child Identification Programs for Missing Children Protection. I have seen the wives of Masons make visits to the Children Burns Hospitals.
These wives support the works and deeds of their spouses.

Ronald Doucette - Forum Moderator

I am not Swedish. Good for them if your figures are true.
In my country, the Lodge takes in around 6 000 000 every year in membership fees alone. How much they take in in their “collections for charity” is of course never published. But they do publish how much they give to charity. It amounts to about 300 000 every two years or so. Seems they spend most of the money on themselves?

Dear Non-Swedish Visitor:
I am now curious. What country are you speaking of?

The In Kind donations of the help to children and the hands on labor to assist a community projects, schools or hospitals in immeasurable. Yet, I have seen those good works and the betterment of the community.

Masonic building upkeep and the ensuing effects on the surrounding area, especially in blighted areas of a town or city, provide economic stability.

Husband and Wife Lodge events bring the members and community together. Cookouts involve the whole family. Some lodges pride themselves on the power to bring non denominational worship together for all families. The list is to long to continue.

Ronald Doucette - Forum Moderator

Wow. Can’t stay away long without this thread taking on new ground. Catching up on my Blackberry while in a meeting!

It does help to know where people are from when posting. All the Masons here generally have their location on record for everyone to see. It would be fair for others to do the same—especially on lengthy posts. I am sure that Brother Doucette did not have the Swedish figures at his fingertips. And we all have real jobs.

I did want to say, for the record, that Freemasons in America give more that $3 Million a DAY to charity, much of that to support children with severe burns or crippling illnesses. Most of that money is donated by individual Masons.

I actually don’t know—from a charity standpoint—what goes on in every other country, but I know that Masons generally give much more than they get.

Going forward I do hope we can move this thread on to more positive ground.

Thanks

I have been married to a Mason for 25 years. Nothing has caused more strife in our marriage than Masonry.

In the past 25 years, he has been master of his blue lodge 3 times. He was a district deputy for almost 3 years followed by 6 years as the Grand Lecturer. He has 3 life memberships in various blue lodges (at $500 each). The two extra ones “because they needed the money.” At one time, he held nine offices in various bodies at once. I have no idea how much money has been paid in dues or donated without my knowledge or consent. I know we need a bigger closet to accommodate all his uniforms and hats.

In my opinion, it would be far more efficient to raise money for charity without all the self-aggrandizement of offices, ceremonies, uniforms, etc.

The way officers schedule their calendars, a year in advance, our children have had an absent father for school plays and concerts because he was “already committed.” Kids can’t schedule those things that far ahead! Our daughters would not marry a Mason if he were the last man on Earth.

I no longer attend Masonic social events or installations. I am sick and tired of sitting between my husband and another man who talks over me as if I were not there. I am not going to sit in the lounge, with all the other women, while the men hold a “30 minute” meeting before a dinner that delays the meal for an hour and a half. I will no longer “grin and bear it” while the master of ceremonies tells blond jokes or shouts to a Brother he “owes his wife a dress.”

I object to being introduced as “his Lady.” The term is outdated and connoted a man’s ownership of his wife as her “Lord.” Chivalry is dead and for good reason. I am not his property, I am his partner for life. (at least, that’s the way I see it.)

I am not going to be paraded around, in square corners, to hang yet another “jewel” around his neck knowing that it means many more nights of sitting home alone. Nor will I hostess, by default, ceremonies for the next incoming Grand officer as is the assumption in our state. I am not an accessory to his tuxedo.

Joining the “ladies’ auxiliary” is of no interest to me. I am not into ritual, period. I went through the Eastern Star initiation, about 20 years ago, and it was the silliest thing I’ve ever seen. Even if I could join a blue lodge, I would not, it’s not my cup of tea. I have a very hard time understanding how he can take all that overblown, archaic language and marching around in funny shape seriously.

I just found the “Instructions to the Investigation Committee” that includes “checking out the wife.” Too bad he joined before we were married. I would have had lots of questions, too. Like, “How do you justify excluding women?”

It is clear he will never quit. The only way I have to live with it is to stay as far away from it as possible. I just ask for his schedule and find something else to do. At this point, that’s more than 50% of his non-work, waking hours. So, our tacit agreement is, “do your thing and leave me out of it.”

Before you reply, know these facts:

- I knew my husband before he was a Mason. He was a fine man, then. Masonry has not “improved” him, it has possessed him.

- I don’t care if he has something that is his, alone. Everyone needs a hobby. I care that it comes before everything else in our life. He even plans our vacations around being able to visit some lodge or attend some meeting distant from our home.

- Don’t tell me he is in the minority in participating to “excess.” I see it in many other members and hear it from many other wives.

If Masonry does not come into the modern world regarding it’s behavior and language toward women, it will die out. No woman I know, under the age of 60, would put up with what I have.

Don’t toast us as your “Ladys” or write us poems for our “patience.” Neither of those things do us honor or enrich our real lives. Real life is not lived in closed meetings or archaic rituals. It happens here, at home, and you’re missing it!

To MW Anonymous

I would like to express my sympathy for your situation. But I can say without reservation that the problem here is not with Freemasonry but with both your husband’s and your own choices.

Just as an antidote, I will relate the story of a couple very close to me. This man is one of the greatest men I have ever known. He worked tirelessly for his family, and when he joined Freemasonry he also made his way through some of the posts you described. But instead of being resentful, his wife was very proud of him, and accompanied him on many, many Masonic outings. But as he moved through the ranks, he was cognizant of his time away, and did not try to find his Greatness just within the walls of the Fraternity. When he was asked to do more in certain areas, he declined, and instead took posts in areas where his wife could be more involved. He rose to the head of the Shriners, and had his wife by his side at almost every event. With his wife by his side, he personally made sure that children with severe burns got to the Shriner’s Hospital in Boston – and with his wife at his side, he visited those children. He helped me to become a Mason, and mentored me throughout my time. Today, in his 80’s, he enjoys Masonic events – almost always with his wife – and is widely admired both within and without the Fraternity. I would be proud to be just like him.

My point is that you are wrong. People make decisions based on their needs. A man who truly neglects his family is doing so for the wrong reasons, but it is not the fault of Freemasonry.

Yes, I have seen the situation you are describing. And I have met these men’s wives. I promise you the anger you are feeling comes from somewhere else.

As much as I would love to keep this thread open, it is not really a place designed for women to come and air their troubles. Both men and women need to look within themselves – and their own lives – to understand their path. Yes, a man can get drawn into all the hundreds of areas of Freemasonry. And he could go to far.—just like he could get drawn into any positive endeavor until it becomes self serving.

Another reason I am closing this thread is because of the decidedly angry tone that every woman who posted to this thread (and the Lady Gloves thread) seemed to take—which seemed a little too convenient. A further search allowed us to discover a hidden agenda of spam with multiple screen names and IP address infiltrating the Site, with no intent to ask real questions, but, as one member suggested, were only here to cause havoc on the Site. These memberships have been discontinued

Thank you all for your questions, answers, and your time.

Bob Heruska.
Forum Administrator