I have a question obviously and I think that you men seem reasonable enough to give me a straight forward answer that is built upon logic and sound reasoning.
Why are atheists not allowed to be Freemasons?
The reason I ask is because freemasonry claims to be a nonreligious organization that caters to men of all faiths. But since catering to men of all faiths would pretty much preclude the fraternity from referencing or teaching anything about a particular religion why not just throw out the religious clause and admit men that are atheists as well?
it simply seems to me that the question “do you believe in a supreme being?” is a bit useless if it doesn’t really matter after your in. it seems similar to asking the applicant what his favorite baseball team is, and if the man answers that he doesn’t watch baseball then you kick him out, even though his lack of fondness for baseball seems to hold little if any effect on the teachings you could and surely would bestow upon him.
Surely as educated members of society you realize that atheism is the fastest growing religious group (the non religious) and most of those atheists are atheists because they question the world around them and find no evidence of any supreme being. They use science and reason to come to their religious choices as it is the right of any man to do so. These are not bad people, and could surely partake in your rich teachings and grasp them as well as any man.
I have heard masons claim that they KNOW there is a god but that they don’t believe in any specific god since it is arrogant of man to claim to know god’s will. Well aren’t these same men a notch away from atheists. It would appear they are simply saying they believe in a god so that they don’t have to come to terms with reality and say that they simply don’t know how the universe came to be or how it was created, because “I don’t know” is a scary phrase to some people.
I guess what I am trying to say is that atheists, just like any other religious group, have fine upstanding individuals, and some not so fine individuals.
So if you would. Please try to explain this to me using as much fact based logic as possible.
One last question.
I am an atheist but I really do want to be a Freemason. What if I just lied during the application process? (I am not condoning lying, it is against my own set of morals and ethics, but just trying to drive home the point) does a belief in god really come into the big picture of Masonic teachings or is it just something that you require for no apparent reason? I guess the real question is would an atheist be able to better himself through freemasonry and if not, why?
Thank you for your help with this line of questioning.
Your question is difficult to answer. I can give you my personal answer, but I cannot speak for all of Masonry (no one can).
In order to become a Mason, a man must truthfully state that he believes in a power greater than himself. This “higher power”, “supreme being”, is not specified. Masonry has members from many different and wildly diverse religious and faith backgrounds. I do not “know” that there is a supreme being, I do not have the ability to “know” this, I only believe it to be so. I am certainly no philosopher or theologian.
Masonry is founded on a belief in Deity. Unless a man has this pre-existent belief, he has no place in our fraternity. At the beginning of each Mason’s “career”, he must invoke the aid of Deity. Therefore, it is logical, that unless he possesses a belief, he cannot begin the journey.
It matters a great deal, after a man is Mason, that he continues his faith belief. Each step in Masonry is made possible, through faith in a higher power. Every lodge in the world, is dedicated to God, and represents King Solomon’s Temple. Atheism, therefore has no place in Masonry.
I certainly do not claim that all atheists are “bad” people. The man who gave me my first break in the telecommunications industry was an atheist, one of the finest men I have ever known. I would rather deal with an honest atheist, than a hypocritical Christian. Furthermore, morality and service to mankind, are not the exclusive properties of the religious. Atheists can and should participate in philanthropy, and charitable undertakings. Atheists can benefit from ethical instruction.
Religion and Science are not mutually exclusive. I am an engineer, I deal in the world of reality. But I believe, sincerely, that there are super-natural forces at work in the universe. And I know that science does not contain all of the answers. Many people are comforted, in believing that there are powers in the universe, greater than themselves.
When a man makes application to the fraternity, he must state that he believes in a Supreme Being. And he is certainly free to falsify his application. The application is not a sworn affidavit, and no one will be prosecuted for perjury. But the fraternity is dedicated to truth, and it would seem quite a paradox, for a liar to wish to participate in an organization which holds truth to be fundamental.
The requirement for belief in God (as defined by the individual), is part of the “warp and woof” of Freemasonry. The faith requirement is carried by the individual, and the corporate structure of Freemasonry, from day one, right up through the degrees, and throughout the Masonic experience, right up until the time, when the Mason makes the final journey ,which all men must make, and from which no traveller ever returns.
I will gladly state, that the lessons of friendship, morality, and brotherly love, inculcated in Masonry, can benefit even an atheist. No religion or secular organization, holds an exclusivity on relief to the poor, the sick, the widow, and the orphan. Masonry, is among other things, a “self-improvement course”. I would have no problem at all ,with an atheist, seeking to improve himself. Very little in Masonry is secret. If an atheist found some benefit in our philosophy, I would have no problem at all with this.
There are some “Masonic” organizations that accept atheists. In France, there are five (5) Grand Lodges, and four of them admit atheists.
I hope that I have clarified the matter somewhat. Feel free to PM me, if I can be of further assistance.
Thank you for your interest in Freemasonry and your question. It is an important discussion to have.
I agree with Mike that Charles has done a very good job of trying to explain why atheism and Freemasonry are not compatible. I would like to amplify one particular point Charles made when he wrote “Masonry is founded on a belief in Deity.” Although we are not concerned with how our members define or worship their Supreme Being, the Fraternity’s ritual emphasized three ideas: first, God exists; second, men are put on this world to exercise their faculties and work as God’s instruments; and third, that their work is to be performed in accordance with certain principles of morality and justice indicated by the laws contained in Sacred Writings. Freemasonry has no Sacred Book of its own. Instead, our individual members refer themselves to the Book of their faith.
I was just about to ask this question right before I saw it, glad I didn’t have to ask twice!
What I find interesting is the contradictory answer really. How can freemasonry be about upholding the truth when the truth is that no man can say truthfully that there is or is not a deity. We can all have our own personal opinions, but when one groups personal opinions are claimed to be upheld as truth, such as in the case of freemasonry, then the burden of that ‘truth’ is upon them when they wish to discriminate against others opinions of how the universe came to be.
Freemasonry in this regard seems to be nothing about truth, but about a fraternal group of religious followers who wish to discriminate against people who don’t hold a form of religious belief.
Is discrimination against other peoples beliefs something that should be held as a moral practice or as something a particular deity would demand from it’s followers?
I also would like to join, but it seems like there are no societies out there that actually uphold what it says it preaches and teaches. It’s sad really. Are people who truthfully answer as “I don’t know” allowed to be admitted, because honestly, that’s the only truthful thing anyone can say.
“But the fraternity is dedicated to truth, and it would seem quite a paradox, for a liar to wish to participate in an organization which holds truth to be fundamental.”
This is in regards to masonry disallowing atheists based solely on lack of religious beliefs.
So, if we’re to be honest and truthful with one another, where is the assumption on my part?
You say it doesn’t have opinions about non-members, but that’s a lie, it’s already made an opinion against me for my lack of being able to decide if there is enough evidence of a deity either way. I can’t be allowed into masonry because I give a truthful answer that no man can know?
Granted a private organization can allow and disallow whomever it so chooses, that much I understand and agree with. However, from my inadequate and basic understanding and the previous answer given it would appear for all intents and purposes that freemasonry is only for the religious and not for truth as was previously stated by your fellow mason.
So my issue is how can freemasonry be about upholding the truth by saying a liar is a paradox in freemasonry, when in essence all free masons are liars when they uphold their version of the truth to be that there is a creator when the real truth is that not a single one of us knows that answer. There’s the real paradox.
If freemasonry is nothing more than a religious fraternity, then maybe masons should be more careful in brandishing the word truth or the phrase ‘upholding the truth’, when we all know what the real truth is and what our own personal opinions are. I would like to join the lodge not far from my house as I do think I could learn a lot from what I’ve read about masons. I never had a male role model to guide me through life’s lessons, and I feel like from everything good I’ve read about masonry, that this organization would help me become a better man and father to my own three children. I don’t know of anything else like freemasonry, and I won’t join the army as I’m not about to fight the personal wars of some corrupt president. Nothing good come’s out of killing another human for someone else profit and gain.
I’ve read that the french lodges allow atheists, but are now not part of the mainstream freemasonry practice, do they at least have lodges in Massachusetts?
While I think this thread has merit, it is easy to see how it can delve into Semantics, as Brother Martin said. I hope interested parties will understand if we get a little frustrated. We all do this on our own time, and we try very hard to give honest answers.
I am thinking that prospective applicants may need a bit more explanation in terms of the “reasoning” behind why Freemasons have this requirement for a belief in Deity. Freemasonry is not a religious organization. There is no requirement that men belong to a religion or even be religious. Then why is this BELIEF in God idea even there?
It might help to understand that the Fraternity came of age during the Enlightenment – a time when men were first coming to believe a very radical idea – that mans’ rights and privileges came from God, not Kings. Hard to believe now, but in the early 1700’s this in itself was a huge step. Many of the great thinkers of the Enlightenment were Masons – and indeed the Masonic Ritual that you’ll still hear today was created during that time.
It’s easy to see a lot of this Masonic thinking in America’s founding documents. And as in our Declaration, belief in a Creator was just a GIVEN – our justification for being—not something that was argued. The document did not start out by saying, “we believe there is a God, and here’s why…” it said men were “endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable Rights…”
America was an ecumenical place—some say a “Masonic Experiment”—where men of all religions finally had the opportunity to coexist. America’s basic tenets have changed little in the last 300 years, and neither has Masonic ritual. While discussion of religion is not allowed in Masonic Meetings, most allusions and metaphor seen in Masonic teachings still revolve around a Creator. So belying a belief in God would be a bit antithetical at this point. And without changing the ritual, it would probably be a bit disingenuous for a true atheist.
As you can tell from some of our other answers, the Supreme Being issue has come up before in our history. Some Lodges in France and elsewhere actually split from the Fraternity because of it, arguing that God had no place in Masonry – just as in America some groups wish to strike the God word from anything governmental and public.
I don’t think that’s going to happen with mainstream Freemasonry. Or America, for that matter.
In fact, I think one of the reasons that Freemasonry and America have lasted as long as they have is because of this “Ecumenical Brotherhood.” We thrive precisely because we avoid the pitfalls of a mono-cultural experience.
At this point let me say that I am speaking from a personal perspective here – I’m not trying to open up a new debate—but the tone and manner of the questions being asked, at least in this thread, appear to be sincere. They seem steeped in a desire to KNOW, to find out. I could be wrong, but they seem to me to hold out a hope, if you will, that there IS a God. And as the last poster aptly said, in terms of truth, there is not much more that any of us can truly know.
But that is something Freemasons all share. A hope. And a belief. A hope that there is something greater going on. A belief that somewhere, somehow, it all means something. I don’t think there’s anything exclusive or exclusionary with this requirement. Hope is a universal human emotion. Especially when it comes to the hereafter.
And again, this is my own feeling, not speaking for Freemasonry or any Grand Lodge, but I think anyone who feels this kind of hope cannot truly be an atheist, and would be welcome in Freemasonry. In fact, I think hope is one of the great fundamental bonds of the Fraternity.
I actually think most modern scientists feel the same way, as much as they may say otherwise. And, since today is September 11, I offer this anecdote:
I recently heard an esteemed professor of biology, and an avowed atheist, speaking at a Harvard Symposium composed of scientists, theologians, and philosophers from around the world. He made a pretty convincing point that Religion could very well lead to the destruction of our planet. But he also argued, from a scientific and biological standpoint, that science has not solved for all the variables of change in the world, and is not likely to. He proposed that we all needed to perhaps start “Reinventing the Sacred” (you can Google it), finding some common ground that we could all agree upon before we all kill each other. He postulated that if we accept the idea that the “Creator” is this great “...Vast, Ceaseless Creativity of the Universe, we will grant permission for a renewed spirituality and awe, reverence and responsibility for all that lives….”
I’m sorry, but these words didn’t sound like an atheist talking to me. In fact, his tone was one of hope. He was not a Mason, but his words echoed words that have been part of Masonic Ritual for 300 years.
In any event, I am not a philosopher or a theologian or a scientist. But the bottom line here is that if you want to become a Freemason, you will be required to acknowledge a belief in some type of Supreme Being. How you perceive, and how you believe, in that Supreme Being is up to you. Unless you’ve given up all hope, I don’t see a problem.
And unless you join this Forum as a Mason and try to answer questions like this, no one will ask you to talk about it again. But if you sign that document, and follow through with the Degrees, you will join a group of men who hope that somehow what we do here on earth matters—for our planet, for our fellow creatures, and for ourselves.
And I don’t think that’s too much to ask of a man.
And what if one claims that this creator is whatever forces brought the universe into being and all life within?
Does the requirement of belief in a creator also require that this creator be an intelligent supernatural deity? If masonry is to include all forms of beliefs in this one creator, then does it not make sense that someone who believes those forces is the creative force that brought this universe into existence should also be allowed to join?
To me, it sounds like a tricky issue.
I here that it’s not a religious fraternity, but all masons have some belief in a god by whatever name.
I here that one needs not be religious nor be of a religion, but just have a belief in a creator, again by whatever name so chosen.
Yet, when an atheist who accepts no man made creator exists as a creator of our universe, we are told to walk the other way. No true atheist says no god exists at all. No man can truthfully give that answer. An atheist does not accept a man made god, we will not bow down and worship the authority of a man who claims authority from above. I can’t say there is a god and I can’t say there is not a god, a god is of human invention, a man-like being with powers and knowledge above mere mortal man. There is no conception of any deity that I know of as of this moment that is not in the humanized form of man with human emotions, needs, and wants. That is something I will not I believe in.
But I will also truthfully tell others that I don’t know if there is something higher. I see no evidence of anything higher other than the arrogance of man.
Truth my rear end.
Hope and belief is fine, I have no issues there. When one claims to uphold the fundamentals of truth and turn those away who don’t hold the same belief in a man made ideology, then those men ARE liars.
As was stated:
“So far here, you haven’t shown any of that “generousity of spirit” that we like to see in our members. “
Where is the generosity of spirit in masonry when it will hypocritically turn people away? You can’t claim to uphold the fundamentals of truth and then openly lie. A belief is a belief, not a truth. This is where I am having the problem. Either freemasonry is upholding the fundamentals of it’s belief system in a deity, or it’s upholding the fundamentals of truth of which man cannot know that answer and can not state that his belief is a fundamental truth. To do so is to risk oneself being called out as a liar and hypocrite.
I’m sorry if our answers do not somehow answer you questions.
And if any of our answers offended you, I apologize for the Fraternity.
We all try our best here, but we sometimes get frustrated. We do not mean to make things personal. We don’t know you—we only see someone looking for answers. If you are not looking for answers, or the answers we give are not acceptable, we cannot do anything about that. It’s not about winning or losing.
I tried to explain the reasons behind Freemasonry’s belief. Beyond that, all of our ritual, which is repeated in plays made for a new initiate—have allusions to a Supreme being, a Creator. The same ritual has been repeated for hundreds of years, exactly the same way. It’s not going to change.
If I didn’t believe in some kind of a Creator, I would find these lectures to be uncomfortable. If you don’t believe in a creator,for whatever reasons, I would expect you would find them uncomfortable as well.
The “liar” and “truth” comments were not in reference to you personally, but in reference to Masons being truthful in our own lives. And to anyone who would sign a document saying they believed in a Creator when they didn’t.
This is really not about semantics—since it’s all up you. No one is going to question you if you ask to become a Freemason and answer “yes.” to the belief in a supreme being question. Or ask you what you mean by it. Or ask you if you are sure.
Every man has to decide for himself if he wants to be a Freemason—and can accept the criteria for membership. No one will ask you to join. You have to make that decision yourself.
I think we will probably close this thread for now.
If you are in Massachusetts, and you want to talk more, stop by the Open House at the Grand Lodge in Boston on October 17th. All the Lodges in the state are open that day, but I will be at this one. Feel free to ask for me.
I was disappointed when I saw the “belief” requirement. I’m not trying to get in or bash the group. I realize it’s not for me. I did find some things disturbing in this thread however. The fishing club analogy was a poor one. The primary focus of such a club is fishing but it is made clear that religious beliefs are not the focus of Freemasons. The club does discriminate against women and atheists. Discrimination is not always a bad thing. Harvard discriminates against applicants with low GPA’s. It’s not like the Freemasons are burning heretics. It does make one wonder why you would require a belief that doesn’t seem like it should be a requirement. No doubt, religious beliefs and “moral fiber” have been thought to go hand in hand (wrongly in my opinion), especially in the time when Freemasonry started. Morality is often taught in a religious context but religion and morality are not the same thing and religion does not “own” morality. These may seem like obvious statements but many people don’t make the distinction. In extreme cases, religion is substituted for morality, which can lead one to fly an airplane into an office building because it’s “God’s will”. Although I’m pretty sure none of the 9/11 hijackers were Freemasons. I’m sure most Freemasons regard their religious belief as a positive quality. They probably think it makes them “a better person”. Does that make an atheist “a worse person”? Let’s face it; atheism was considered immoral in the time of Ben Franklin. They weren’t excluded because their way of reasoning was incompatible with “believers”. Atheists were thought to be morally inferior and not worthy. This is undeniable for anyone remotely familiar with history. Negative opinions of atheists persist, even if they are not always overt.
One member wrote
“I will gladly state, that the lessons of friendship, morality, and brotherly love, inculcated in Masonry, can benefit even an atheist.”
Did he mean “even a lowly atheist”? Are these concepts supposed to familiar only to those who worship the supernatural?
Then there was
“I’m sorry, but these words didn’t sound like an atheist talking to me. In fact, his tone was one of hope”
So, are atheists hopeless, or do we just sound that way?
Freemasons are steeped in tradition, but is it right to carry on a flawed tradition? Gender aside, I don’t believe the Freemasons intend to ostracize or offend, but excluding atheists does both. As mentioned, it’s a private organization, free to choose it’s membership as it pleases, so the tradition of looking down on atheism will continue. Maybe atheists are not despised as they once were. Perhaps the thought of atheists in the mix makes the membership uncomfortable. Whatever the reason, the Freemasons are doing themselves a disservice by excluding good men.
I will sit out on the side of this one for awhile to rest and refresh myself. It is the weekend.
I promise you no one on this Forum has anything against atheists. We don’t think you are inferior or become uncomfortable around you.
We’ve all done our best to explain this aspect of Freemasonry—I think that anyone with further questions could get all the answers he wants by re-reading these posts.
There’s no real satisfactory answer’s given though.
* We’re told the requirement is a belief in deity. I can accept that for a private organization.
* Then we’re told that this requirement doesn’t matter after one is in freemasonry. Then one begs to know why have the requirement in the first place.
* Then we’re told that the rites and rituals would be uncomfortable for those who answer to no deity because of the nature of those rituals.
Either it is or isn’t a religiously oriented organization. We’ve been told that it isn’t, but then other answers are contradictory to that answer. How can anyone gain insight with contradictions like this? If anything it makes one even more confused.
Does it accept the belief that each own self is the grand architect? Could one skirt the requirement by believing in one’s own self as this higher authority to answer to? The way I see the world, one should never give up their unalienable right to self by subjecting self to others whims and demands. In essence, everyone is ultimately their own higher authority that they need to look up to to guidance. We are all our own deities of destiny and there is nothing greater than the individual self.
It’s been said that it does not matter the nature of each individuals personal deity, if that is truly the case, that all beliefs in deity, whatever they may be would be accepted. The one thing that isn’t glossed over is whether this deity is required to be an outside third party to the believer or can it just be the believer himself. Would make for an interesting concept. Believing that one is capable of good without other higher authority other than one’s self because it is good and not because a third party higher authority said it was good.
I think this thread is getting way too complicated. You need to stop thinking of Masonry and it’s ways as if they were formed recently. They were formed hundreds of years ago and follow those roots and traditions. Churches and religions follow roots from many centuries ago also. We don’t question the people who believe in them and their ways. We just admire that they believe in something they like, or in your case, we admire your beliefs. As a person I would meet and talk to in public or at work, it’s totally irrelevant to me what you believe as a higher authority. Most likely in a public situation, it wouldn’t even come up, as it is private to everyone.
As far as why an Atheist as not allowed, it’s like when you break the law and you get arrested. You now have to pay for what you did. Be it a fine, community service, or jail time. Now when we break a moral law and only you have to contend with it, what do you do? If you believe in some higher power then you believe you will pay in another way at another time somehow, which is what keeps you from committing that moral crime in the first place. We all swear an oath when we join. What is to keep us from breaking that oath. We have always had that rule for just such a reason and because we are so steeped in tradition, it will most likely not be changed. If we started changing rules like this, it would open up a can of worms and then Masonry would become a skeleton of it’s former self.
I’m not saying that an Atheist would lie or not fulfill his obligations. It’s not for me to judge you. It was just written then for the reason I stated previously and nothing more. It was a belief then and, whether you believe it is out of date or not relevant, it stays.
I understand your statement that you consider yourself to be the higher power. You constantly strive to better yourself. To answer to your own character and morals. To not let yourself be lessened in any way. When the day is done, you have to live with yourself and did you do right that day. That is a moral character that you posses that is very admirable. It is a way of life that, in my case, my church and Freemasonry has helped me follow. In your case it is something you work at yourself with the same result in the end.
As far as the higher authority goes, if you believe that there is something greater than you, even within you, and you feel you could fulfill the obligations, than are you not qualified.
I am not completely familiar with true Atheists. I would like to ask you an honest question. If there is a time when you make a moral mistake, how do you feel after wards? I guess what I’m trying to ask is would it be the legal punishment that would make you not commit it or something else. Again, this is not a stab at you, just wondering for myself. Personally for me, it would be both a legal and moral future punishment that would make me not commit a crime. It’s also what we all know as “right and wrong”.
Good luck. This may not make a difference but at the very least it’s more information.
D - NO. Freemasonry does not accept for membership someone who believes that he is the Creator of the Universe. However, if he was able to prove that he was to the satisfaction of the Lodge Committee it might.
Thank you for the reply Mike. It’s a little more helpful with the clearer explanation. I still have one thing left unanswered to my satisfaction though.
When I said belief that one’s own self is the higher authority, I didn’t necessarily mean to imply that one’s self was the creator of the universe, only that one’s self is the master of his/her ultimate destiny within the universe. As being labeled an atheist for refusal to answer to man made deities with humanized feelings, I won’t deny the possibility that there could be a creator of the universe, but I won’t accept that it’s a humanized emotional wreck as depicted in all religious works.
What I was trying to get at is if an atheist can truthfully acknowledge the possibility of some creator, while also truthfully granting his own self as the ultimate higher authority he must answer to for his own doings. It just seems odd that freemasonry will accept a belief, but only under certain terms as in it seems to mean belief in deity as defined by current popular religious belief. In such an effect that this higher authority must be an intelligent god-like entity that marks human-kind as it’s ultimate pinnacle of creation. Yet it will refuse belief in the possibility of deity and that man is accountable by man only and that any possible deity is not entirely vested in the insignificant life of man.
If all forms of belief in deity are said to be accepted by freemasonry, then I fail to understand why this particular belief in deity is held as unacceptable. If all beliefs are said to be accepted, but then twisted to mean only popular religious beliefs, then does that not mean it is a lie and discriminating against lesser popular beliefs?
For instance, why can’t one claim to be the creator of the universe? Possibly not in the god-like sense, but there is some theories out there that state that each of us creates our own form of reality or that reality is essentially only real if there is an observer to observe it and without that observer there would be no reality. Sure, we can argue that deity is the ultimate observer, but then whom is observing deity or why does deity get allowed special observational privileges that we are denied such as not being required to have an observer to exist. The subject of what deity is or how it exists or how it can even create is a touchy subject and there are many possible answers that are not from mainstream religion, if only mainstream religious definitions are to be acceptable, then freemasonry does not encompass all forms of belief in deity.
@ScottD
I’m not taking any offense here, but I am stating that I strongly dislike the biblical approach to morality.
I see the issue of morality as such, if I wouldn’t want it done to me then I shouldn’t do it to others.
Why should one not kill another. Ask yourself if you would like someone to kill you under any circumstance, how would it affect you and others around you.
If the answer is No, I would not like anyone to kill me under any circumstance, then I would deem the act as immoral.
We can go down an entire list of issues that would be considered moral and immoral by biblical standards and see that the entirety of those higher authoritative morals are nothing more than common sense. At least common sense for those who can think clearly and intelligently.
From my reasoning of immoral acts, it even goes so far as allowing ones self to being instrumental in acts of war to defend a country. I would deem that as immoral because one is making the excuse to kill another from the whims of a perceived higher authority to defend that higher authorities ability to maintain control over it’s subjects. Essentially one gives his/her own authority away or put aside for someone else cause which under normal circumstances one would deem an immoral act. Self defense is one thing, but killing under the command of someone else is entirely different.
