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You have great morals and values. Why such weird rituals?
Posted: 10 October 2011 12:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]  
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mguiler - 10 October 2011 12:38 PM

“But Mark, back to you.

You seem to be rapid firing questions here without really thinking about the answers we are giving you. I don’t think the country should be too concerned about its elected officials and presidents being Freemasons. After all, in many ways the country itself is a great Masonic experiment—the ideals of Freemasonry were built into our Declaration from the very beginning by Freemasons.  America is dependent in many ways on the goodness of it’s people—that we will do the right thing. And that’s what Freemasonry is all about.

Bob Heruska
Forum Administrator.”

I am trying to get my information from your site

From this site?  If you’re trulyninterested in learning about Freemasonry, might I suggest you read “Freemasons for Dummies”.  That will provide you much better information than the conspiracy sites you seem to be using.  When you’ve finished that book, come back here to discuss it.  The conversation will be much more enlightening.

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Posted: 10 October 2011 12:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]  
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There’s some confusion here, so everyone hold up.

He’s quoting one of our Moderators, not some conspiracy site.  The text he’s quoting could be confusing and needed further clarification.  Hopefully what I added made more sense.

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Dan

Past Master, Columbian Lodge A.F.&A.M. - Boston, MA
Senior Deacon, Friendship Lodge A.F.&A.M. - Wilmington, MA
32° Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, Valley of Boston
Shriners International, Aleppo Temple - Wilmington, MA

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Posted: 10 October 2011 12:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]  
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that above is a quote from this site.  Its not from a conspiracy site.

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Posted: 10 October 2011 12:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]  
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my question is just that Freemasonry obviously played a major role in the creation and thus the history of our country and I am wondering why it isn’t even mentioned in schools when they teach about American History.

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Posted: 10 October 2011 01:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]  
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mguiler - 10 October 2011 12:53 PM

my question is just that Freemasonry obviously played a major role in the creation and thus the history of our country and I am wondering why it isn’t even mentioned in schools when they teach about American History.

That is a GREAT question, and unfortunately I don’t think there is a simple answer.  There are instead probably hundreds of small answers that add up to it.  There was a time in this country when there was actually a political party who’s sole purpose was to keep Freemasons from public office.  There has always been an eye of suspicion on the craft.  Knowing that, I don’t find it that strange that history books omit our existence.

Another reason is that it isn’t cut and dry “Masons formed America”.  Many non-Masons were integral in the formation of this society.  No Masonic meeting ever spawned the idea for this country.  We don’t discuss politics in lodge, so that makes the country actually coming about as a result of Masonically sanctioned actions an impossibility.

What we are saying here is that some of the founding fathers were Masons because they believed in the principles that Masonry stood for, and these same principles are what the United States was founded upon. 

Is it at all strange to find that men who believe the equality and the good of mankind would both be involved in an organization dedicated to that and also form a country based on that?  I don’t think it’s a stretch at all.

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Dan

Past Master, Columbian Lodge A.F.&A.M. - Boston, MA
Senior Deacon, Friendship Lodge A.F.&A.M. - Wilmington, MA
32° Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, Valley of Boston
Shriners International, Aleppo Temple - Wilmington, MA

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Posted: 10 October 2011 01:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]  
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Dan Madore - 10 October 2011 01:00 PM
mguiler - 10 October 2011 12:53 PM

my question is just that Freemasonry obviously played a major role in the creation and thus the history of our country and I am wondering why it isn’t even mentioned in schools when they teach about American History.

That is a GREAT question, and unfortunately I don’t think there is a simple answer.  There are instead probably hundreds of small answers that add up to it.  There was a time in this country when there was actually a political party who’s sole purpose was to keep Freemasons from public office.  There has always been an eye of suspicion on the craft.  Knowing that, I don’t find it that strange that history books omit our existence.

Another reason is that it isn’t cut and dry “Masons formed America”.  Many non-Masons were integral in the formation of this society.  No Masonic meeting ever spawned the idea for this country.  We don’t discuss politics in lodge, so that makes the country actually coming about as a result of Masonically sanctioned actions an impossibility.

What we are saying here is that some of the founding fathers were Masons because they believed in the principles that Masonry stood for, and these same principles are what the United States was founded upon. 

Is it at all strange to find that men who believe the equality and the good of mankind would both be involved in an organization dedicated to that and also form a country based on that?  I don’t think it’s a stretch at all.

It’s also important to note there is a distinct difference between “America was formed by Masons” and “America was formed by Masonry”

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Posted: 10 October 2011 01:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]  
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What is that distinct difference and why is it important to note?

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Posted: 10 October 2011 01:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]  
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mguiler - 10 October 2011 01:20 PM

What is that distinct difference and why is it important to note?

The difference is….Masons are men who are members of a Masonic lodge.  Masonry is an organization.  To say it one way means men who are also Masons were involved in creating America.  Saying it the other way means that the organization of Freemasonry created America.

Nobody is saying that our organization created America.  We ARE saying that some of the men who formed this country were ALSO Freemasons.

So there’s the distinction.  America was created by Masons (it was also created by non-Masons).  America was NOT created by Masonry.

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Dan

Past Master, Columbian Lodge A.F.&A.M. - Boston, MA
Senior Deacon, Friendship Lodge A.F.&A.M. - Wilmington, MA
32° Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, Valley of Boston
Shriners International, Aleppo Temple - Wilmington, MA

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Posted: 10 October 2011 01:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]  
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Dan Madore - 10 October 2011 01:30 PM
mguiler - 10 October 2011 01:20 PM

What is that distinct difference and why is it important to note?

The difference is….Masons are men who are members of a Masonic lodge.  Masonry is an organization.  To say it one way means men who are also Masons were involved in creating America.  Saying it the other way means that the organization of Freemasonry created America.

Nobody is saying that our organization created America.  We ARE saying that some of the men who formed this country were ALSO Freemasons.

So there’s the distinction.  America was created by Masons (it was also created by non-Masons).  America was NOT created by Masonry.

Thank you for expanding upon my point.  I should have been more clear.

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Posted: 10 October 2011 01:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]  
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To draw a parallel….

If two firemen started a BBQ restaurant, you would say “That restaurant is owned by firemen”.  YOu would NOT say “That restaurant is owned by the Fire Department”.

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Dan

Past Master, Columbian Lodge A.F.&A.M. - Boston, MA
Senior Deacon, Friendship Lodge A.F.&A.M. - Wilmington, MA
32° Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, Valley of Boston
Shriners International, Aleppo Temple - Wilmington, MA

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Posted: 10 October 2011 01:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]  
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ok well say I born in that BBQ restaurant.  Grew up learning the history of the BBQ restaurant, working at the BBQ restaurant and eating at the BBQ restaurant but never knowing that the fire dept. or that firemen existed until I was 21 years old.  Then being told that the fire dept. is not a secret organization.  Do you think there would be something strange about that?

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Posted: 10 October 2011 02:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]  
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mguiler - 10 October 2011 01:59 PM

ok well say I born in that BBQ restaurant.  Grew up learning the history of the BBQ restaurant, working at the BBQ restaurant and eating at the BBQ restaurant but never knowing that the fire dept. or that firemen existed until I was 21 years old.  Then being told that the fire dept. is not a secret organization.  Do you think there would be something strange about that?

Always the danger of using an analogy, is that it will get taken too far.  :)

The fact that you didn’t know about Freemasonry doesn’t mean that NOBODY knows about Freemasonry.  There are millions of kids in the world who’s father’s are Freemasons.  THEY know about it, provided they ask.  There are millions of wives who are married to Masons.  THEY know about it.  The Masons are mentioned in newspapers.  They have their signs up on the side of the road for everyone to see, right next to the Rotary Club signs and Lions signs.  We put our symbols in front of our buildings, and our buildings often say right on the front that they are a Masonic temple.  We have large and small lodge buildings, we build museums such as the Museum of our National Heritage.  We put our emblems on the cornerstones of buildings when we are involved in their consecration.  There are paintings of our founding fathers in Masonic Aprons.  Our Shriners drive around in parades in go-karts.  Thousands of books have been written about us, some positive and some negative.  We donate an average of 3 million dollars a DAY to charity, and as a group, we donate more blood than any organization.

Pretty secret society, huh?

My friend, if you’ve never heard of us before, it is because you weren’t paying attention.  ;)

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Dan

Past Master, Columbian Lodge A.F.&A.M. - Boston, MA
Senior Deacon, Friendship Lodge A.F.&A.M. - Wilmington, MA
32° Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, Valley of Boston
Shriners International, Aleppo Temple - Wilmington, MA

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Posted: 10 October 2011 02:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]  
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mguiler - 10 October 2011 01:59 PM

ok well say I born in that BBQ restaurant.  Grew up learning the history of the BBQ restaurant, working at the BBQ restaurant and eating at the BBQ restaurant but never knowing that the fire dept. or that firemen existed until I was 21 years old.  Then being told that the fire dept. is not a secret organization.  Do you think there would be something strange about that?

You do know the firemen exist.  You just don’t know that they are firemen, because it’s not that relevant.  You don’t know that they’re Pentacostal or Presbyterian, either.  Nor did anyone teach you that they played croquet, or liked blueberry cobbler.

I’ve read a few biographies on some of the important figures in the birth of this nation.  I was amazed at the things I wasn’t taught about them.  I didn’t attribute that to a conspiracy theory, though.

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Posted: 10 October 2011 03:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]  
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If you’re really interested in the Masonic connection to the founding of America, id recommend picking up Solomon’s Builders.  Great book which kind of explains everything.  Well… it is written by Christopher Hodapp after all…

You’ll find that a lot of the things that were revolutionary about the fraternity prior to the founding of America are similar to a lot of the things that are revolutionary in our country as a whole.  Like religious tolerance, democratic votes, and equality.

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Mike Kelly
Stevensville Lodge #28
EA 9/15/11

“My most brilliant achievement was my ability to be able to persuade my wife to marry me.”
-Winston Churchill

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Posted: 10 October 2011 08:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]  
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Hello all

This was an entertaining thread—though it wandered a bit.

At this point I think we can close it as the questions have been answered and it’s now reaching a point where it’s 3 pages long and all the analogies are getting a bit confusing. I do want to thank all the brothers here for taking the time to answer.

Mark, if you have other questions, please open another thread. I would also ask that you try to be a little less confrontational and or Socratic in your lines of questioning. We are here to answer questions, but we are just volunteers and want to make it all as pleasant as possible. Sometimes I get the feeling that you are trying to win some kind of argument or catch us “tripping up” with our answers. At this point you’ve had a whole slew of Masons trying their best to help you learn about Freemasonry. No ones going to lie to you.

As a reminder to brothers posting on the Forum, if you are a Master Mason we do ask that you leave your name and Lodge in your Bio page, unless you’ve spoken to an admin with a reason why you don’t want to leave it. (For example, we know there are some members of the Forum who have families in countries where Freemasonry is not allowed, and for that reason they do not want theirname on the Web.) In such cases wen ask that you send a PM or an email to a moderator.  Thanks.

Bob Heruska
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Bob Heruska
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Columbian Lodge
Boston, MA

Member of the York Rite, Scottish Rite, and the Mystic Shrine.

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