I am considering petitioning a lodge in the near future (still not sure which one), and I’m curious if actual masonry—literally working with stone and the tools of the craft—figures into modern Freemasonry at all?
I’ve been interested in joining masonry for a little while, and when I’m interested in something I usually just dive in and do a ton of research. In researching the ceremonies and rites of Freemasonry, especially the third degree, I can’t help but notice the similarities between this ritual and the initiation into the Egyptian Mystery schools, and other similar initiation ceremonies into “the mysteries” in Judaism and in early Christianity (which I’m also learning are more closely linked to Egypt than I ever imagined).
Since I hope to go through the degrees at some point in the near future, I may be doing myself a disservice by doing so much research on the rituals. On the other hand, it seems that no matter how much research and reading I do about them, that going through the ceremonies—actually experiencing them—is what’s important, and ultimately the experience itself is what allows one fully grasp the archetypes at play. In that sense it seems that the more research I do about the ceremonies, their history, similarities to other initiation rites, etc. would only give me a richer experience when I go through the degrees.
Tonight I spent some time with a compass and square drawing mandalas on graph paper, and just the experience of doing that—crafting intricate, balanced, and beautiful designs with a few lines made with rather rudimentary tools—was a really meditative act. Not only is there beauty in the designs, but truth, and more than that: proof of that truth. This leads me to think that experiencing the truths of Masonry through the actual tools and practice of the craft therefore could be rather important, and why these truths were apparent to those building to sacred proportions with actual stone, whether at the Temple Mount, in Europe in the middle ages, or in Karnak.
This has turned into a rather sprawling question, so I’ll end by asking a direct and succinct question: Since “experiencing” masonry seems to be so important, does actual masonry play into modern Freemasonry at all, or is modern Freemasonry entirely speculative?
While there may be operative Masons who are also Freemasons, there is nothing operative in speculative Masonry. The closest I’ve come is putting in a patio and doing brickwork for a flower pot in my front yard. Masons do occasionally have cornerstone laying ceremonies, but I’ve never actually seen a Freemason lay a cornerstone.
Also, my advice to you would be to stop reading all of that pseudo-esoterica about the Egyptian mystery schools, etc… If you want to become a Freemason, then do it. If not, don’t.
With replies like that I’m beginning to think that I don’t. You’re suggesting that I not use my mind, and not explore the wealth of knowledge available with modern Egyptology?
That does not sound like promoting the seeking of truth to me, or finding the way that we can “best agree.”
What I think that I’ve concluded by looking at freemasonry from the outside: There aren’t any “secrets” that are worth taking blind oaths for, especially ones that may be spiritually binding and whose penalty is death and dismemberment. And to some extent just the act of asking to be a freemason makes you essentially the same as Hiram’s attackers in the 3rd degree ceremony.
The “mysteries” are inside me and nowhere else. I’ve had an actual near death experience as an adult, so I think there is a limited amount that I could learn from a ceremonial re-birthing from a secret club whose members take the enterprise less seriously than I do.
I don’t intend to sound disrespectful, but I’m no fool. I posted an earnest question that was mocked rather than addressed. Why would I want to be a member of a group like that?
Hi Joshua,
Please do not make the mistake of making one Freemason’s response to you represent the millions of us around the Globe! However, let me temper that by highlighting that you, yourself, turned very quickly from an earnest “seeker” to an earnest “attacker” of the first person who responded, that’s not very enlightened from where I’m sitting. Never forget that people who live in glass houses really should not throw stones.
First to an extent although I would have worded it slightly differently he is quite right. As at the moment seem to be in the group who join Freemasonry and often leave shortly after as you have been misinformed or have misinterpreted what it is all about. Freemasonry is not a search for “the Mysteries” and in fact it only assists its members on one quest and that is self-knowledge and awareness. The connection that genuine Freemasonry has with Ancient Egypt is that Freemasonry classes the builders of Ancient Egypt (not the Ancient Egyptian mysteries etc) as part of its development. However, the builders of the Tower of Babel are in our legendary history too but I’ve yet to see anyone claim we have the secrets of Babel hidden away.
Freemasonry is first and foremost a Fraternity! It is not a “secret club”, this is quite obvious as the first exposes of its ceremonies were published nearly 300 years ago! However, it is a Fraternity that has existed since a time when the World was quite different to what it is today and so some misguided people have sought to (unnecessarily) try and add to its stature by making weird and wonderful claims about it.
The mystery of Freemasonry really boils down to the fact that over the last 300 years, millions of men of all walks of life, religions and ethnic backgrounds have felt moved to join it in order to meet with other men from just as diverse origins in a friendly and harmonious way. When a man becomes a Mason he starts making friends, real friends! Some of whom may share his passion for other interests, say finding deep meanings within our ceremonies that others may not see or just getting together every now and then and sharing a good meal and some chit chat whilst maintaining a proud tradition going back more than 3 Centuries.
Now while you may have an interest in Egypt and there will be many Freemasons (I do too which is why I spent several months there in 2005) that do too, that does not make it a Masonic subject. It just means that some Freemasons are interested. Freemasonry itself deals with supplying each of its members with some tools to speculate and moralise upon, which if used properly can improve how we interact with the rest of mankind. We are not expected to actually handle these tools and apply them to stone but to apply them to our own consciousness and morals in a thoughtful way.
What I think that I’ve concluded by looking at freemasonry from the outside: There aren’t any “secrets” that are worth taking blind oaths for, especially ones that may be spiritually binding and whose penalty is death and dismemberment. And to some extent just the act of asking to be a freemason makes you essentially the same as Hiram’s attackers in the 3rd degree ceremony.
The “mysteries” are inside me and nowhere else. I’ve had an actual near death experience as an adult, so I think there is a limited amount that I could learn from a ceremonial re-birthing from a secret club whose members take the enterprise less seriously than I do.
I don’t intend to sound disrespectful, but I’m no fool. I posted an earnest question that was mocked rather than addressed. Why would I want to be a member of a group like that?
First of all, I did not mock your answer. You asked if Freemasonry was operative - I said “No”. Secondly, I gave you a suggestion not to read “pseudo-esoterica” like the Egyptian Mystery school stuff which you had quoted in your original post. I mentioned that because it has little to do with what happens in a Masonic Lodge or ritual. We don’t reenact the rebirth of Osiris, we don’t communicate with a disembodied head, we don’t engage in Crowlyan demon raising. I’ve read all that stuff too. It’s great entertainment, however bears little connection to practicing Masonry. It’s New Age pablum, that’s it.
It seems (through your initial posing) that you are quite well-read, however Masonry is not something experienced through the pages of a book or from the screen of the internet. You know what Masons do and you know the rituals - so what? You’re still not a Mason. If you want to be a Freemason, DO IT. Don’t read about it, DO IT. Experience it. If you don’t like my advice that’s too bad - I stand by it a hundred percent.
And don’t start dropping Masonic lingo about “who best can work and best agree”. If you come onto a website and ask people their opinions, you should be mature enough to see when you are being given constructive advice and not mocked.
I also now feel baffled and surprised by your outburst! As I have realised that you have already had plenty of answers previous to this thread which have although not directly, have indirectly covered the content herein.
Joshua, neither you, nor Zoffy, nor any other reader of this thread should overlook the essential part of Bro. Mike’s response, which is very clear and well stated: Speculative Freemasonry is first and foremost a Fraternity, a brotherhood; not an esoteric group of would-be scholars probing for knowledge in the distant and long-hidden depths of ancient texts. If that is your principal interest, then you should be turning your attention toward acquiring a working knowledge of Latin, Classical Greek, and ancient Egyptian so as to give you the tools necessary to dig in those fields. Permit me also to note that the speed with which you seem to take offense at a well-meant piece of advice would suggest that you might have difficulty in becoming a real part of an intimate brotherhood consisting of men of all walks of life.
First, to draw comparisons between the ceremonies of Freemasonry and the Osirus and Isis mysteries isn’t preposterous. You use the exact same hand grip to “raise” an initiate from a symbolic death. There aren’t many other clubs that can claim that.
Second, Zoffy you have no idea what I’ve read and what I haven’t. I realize that given the nature of your fraternity that you are constantly having to correct misunderstandings and misinterpretations of what you do. However, I never claimed that Freemasonry was the same or even close to the same as the Egyptian Mystery schools, I only alluded to certain similarities. Isn’t comparative religion/spirituality something that Masons encourage?
Third, to say either become a Mason or don’t…stop asking questions about Egypt would be offensive to anyone with decent mental faculties.
Fourth, my initial question references that Freemasonry is experiential and not something to be read about, and then I am subsequently chastised for not understanding this aspect. Do you actually read these posts and give them consideration, or just reply reflexively?
And fifth, for a group that professes tolerance and understanding, I’m not feeling it on this thread. I’ve been told not to read about Freemasonry, not to read about Egypt, to swear a blood oath on a whim, that I’m immature, that I shouldn’t use masonic lingo, etc., etc.
Yes and I’m now further baffled by the fact that you didn’t read why I said that.
OK I see we need to do this by the numbers! This is not an attack I’m just assuming you’re looking for facts not fantasy.
Joshua D. - 13 June 2011 01:42 PM
First, to draw comparisons between the ceremonies of Freemasonry and the Osirus and Isis mysteries isn’t preposterous.
Well actually yes it is for two main reasons 1) Our Ceremonies and Lectures originated more than 300 years ago when no one in the world had the slightest idea about what went on in Ancient Egypt because no one could translate hieroglyphics, This was because the Rosetta Stone hadn’t been discovered. It wasn’t discovered until 1799 by French soldiers but no one actually understood what it could accomplish until the 1820s. The Grand Lodges of England, Ireland and Scotalnd had already been around for 100 years by then and our rituals far longer. 2) If you had experienced our Ceremonies you would be aware that there is no material in them that is Ancient Egyptian they are based on the Stone Masons trade and the Ritual is based at the time of the building of King Solomon’s Temple.
Joshua D. - 13 June 2011 01:42 PM
You use the exact same hand grip to “raise” an initiate from a symbolic death. There aren’t many other clubs that can claim that.
Oh really so how do you know what the Ancient Egyptians did and how they did it? Ah, of course you read it somewhere! You now need to go back to where you read it and find out how they know what the Ancient Egyptians did before you make these kind of indefensible statements.
Joshua D. - 13 June 2011 01:42 PM
Second, Zoffy you have no idea what I’ve read and what I haven’t.
He may not but based on what you wrote above, I would guess that you’ve read the Hiram Key and possibly “Freemasonry of the Ancient Egyptians” by that famous non Mason when he wrote it Manly P Hall.
Joshua D. - 13 June 2011 01:42 PM
I realize that given the nature of your fraternity that you are constantly having to correct misunderstandings and misinterpretations of what you do. However, I never claimed that Freemasonry was the same or even close to the same as the Egyptian Mystery schools, I only alluded to certain similarities.
Actually you have not “alluded”, you have made statements of things we do and also things we believe, that is not the same thing.
Joshua D. - 13 June 2011 01:42 PM
Isn’t comparative religion/spirituality something that Masons encourage?
No as I have already tried to explain to you! Some Freemasons have an interest in such things not all. Freemasonry itself is not about spirituality or religion it is about fellowship and self-improvement all wrapped up into one bundle.
Joshua D. - 13 June 2011 01:42 PM
Third, to say either become a Mason or don’t…stop asking questions about Egypt would be offensive to anyone with decent mental faculties.
I think you’ll find that you were told that Ancient Egypt is not a Masonic subject not that you shouldn’t continue your interest. Although you seem to have a very long way to go yet.
Joshua D. - 13 June 2011 01:42 PM
Fourth, my initial question references that Freemasonry is experiential and not something to be read about, and then I am subsequently chastised for not understanding this aspect. Do you actually read these posts and give them consideration, or just reply reflexively?
Re-read my response to what your questions were. It is strange to try and change what you originally asked at this point in the thread.
Joshua D. - 13 June 2011 01:42 PM
And fifth, for a group that professes tolerance and understanding, I’m not feeling it on this thread. I’ve been told not to read about Freemasonry, not to read about Egypt, to swear a blood oath on a whim, that I’m immature, that I shouldn’t use masonic lingo, etc., etc.
You now appear to be writing hysterically, which once again leaves me quite baffled! I think you should just try to re-read the answers you’ve been given but try not to assume that they aren’t helpful before you start.
Mike, perhaps once I reach the dizzying heights of self-improvement and fellowship that you speak of I can then demean anonymous people on the internet that are simply expressing their curiosity and thirst for knowledge.
I would also now have to guess that you’ve decided that you just want to start an argument and I still don’t understand why but hey ho whatever floats your boat. I’ve tried to help you out.
Mike, perhaps once I reach the dizzying heights of self-improvement and fellowship that you speak of I can then demean anonymous people on the internet that are simply expressing their curiosity and thirst for knowledge.
But, as you say, I have a long way to go.
Joshua, we can delete your account if you would like, but I’d rather see whether or not you have reread this thread and realized that nobody is mocking you, that we are giving you the answers to your questions, and are trying to give you guidance as those that are members of the very organization you have questions about.
Keep in mind that this site is an open forum. Not all of our members are moderators. Anyone can post a reply. Some are more delicate than others with their responses, but almost always Masons who have been members for enough time will be able to give you the answers you seek. If you don’t like the way those answer were given, please don’t attach that to the message. You came here seeking discussion and you’ve been provided that. I ask that you simply reread what has been written in the previous posts and use the opportunity to get things back on track. If your question wasn’t answered properly, let us revisit it. If your question WAS answered, please feel free to ask another.
I just ask that you understand how truly difficult it is for men to communicate free of misunderstanding on this modern medium that we’ve attached ourselves to, and provide some space to tolerate answers that might seem of a different tone than you are used to. Switching from a thread with a legitimate question about Freemasonry from a thread that is flat out trolling the site is a common occurrence here, so your thread is not the first that has intentionally taken a firm and matter of fact tone, which can so easily be misinterpreted as mocking or scolding. Forgive that and understand that no injustice was intended.
So….please try again if you’d like. Nobody is here to insult you, but we also aren’t here to collect pay for our time in the form of chiding rebuttals. Surely we can agree that what is written is not the same as what is heard? If I had a dollar for every time someone has taken a text, email, or facebook post the wrong way…..
I came to this forum solely out of curiosity and an interest to learn more. I am the first to freely admit that I ultimately have no idea what Freemasonry is all about (why I came here to begin with). I have read a few books that deal with Freemasonry, and a few other books that deal with Egypt, and, yes, I have read bits and pieces of M.P. Hall’s writings about masonry from the 20’s and 30’s.
I’m not claiming to have specialized knowledge, but from reading all kinds of stuff—not just conspiracy-laden pseudo-academic works—I’ve noticed several similarities between the 3rd degree ritual (at least the ritual that the public is familiar with) and some Egyptian stuff, especially the grip of the master mason/the lion’s paw which also looks a lot like the Hebrew priestly blessing. That’s just an observation, not an assertion that masonry is Egyptian, or a claim to know what Masonry is about, or anything to do with me viewing any of this through a conspiratorial lens.
I don’t know what to tell you. I’m interested in Masonry because somehow the symbolism feels familiar to me. Also because I’m relatively new to the city where I live and could use some new friends, social outings, and volunteer opportunities. I’ve always been kinda fascinated by the architecture and layout of Washington D.C., and interested in the masonic underpinnings of the United States. There are lots of reasons. However, I didn’t post on this page to sew discord, but to ask honest questions openly.
I posted a thread a few weeks ago and felt that even though I may have been asking some rather esoteric questions, some of which may have missed the mark by a long shot, that there was a free, open, and gregarious exchange of ideas. That stuck with me, made me reach out to a lodge to schedule a tour, and brought me back to post once again, this time to find an atmosphere decidedly more hostile to my questions, and even my interest it seems.
Maybe I’ll join Freemasonry or maybe I won’t. God kindled the interest in me and brought me to this forum. But maybe he’ll lead me away just as quickly. I try not to worry about such things. I’m just surprised that after I respectfully asked a question on a site called Askafreemason.com, the first club out of the bag from one of your senior members was “Stop reading all of that pseudo-esoterica about the Egyptian mystery schools, etc… If you want to become a Freemason, then do it. If not, don’t.”
I’ll try not to make any value judgments about masonry based on this thread, but I will say that such reflexive defensiveness and self-righteousness is rather off-putting, and it’s not great marketing for an organization whose stated goal is self-improvement, fellowship and tolerance.
Here we go. First of all, let me apologize to you if I have somehow offended you in any way by my tone. I speak (and type) directly; if that came across the wrong way then I assume the fault.
That being said, I stand by what I said before - if you want to become a Mason then do it. I think that you have read enough - in fact, I personally would say that you have read too much. Meet with a lodge and experience the Fraternity directly. And read closely what Bro. Mike Martin wrote - that while there are some Masons who are into religion / esoterica/ Egyptian mysteries / Kaballah / etc… that is NOT what the Fraternity is about. We are not a religion or a religious organization. We don’t maintain a direct lineage from the Templars, we are not keepers of Egyptian cosmology. Period. If that’s your expectation going into Masonry then you will be disappointed.
This is my final posting on this particular thread. Take what you will from it.
