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Posted: 15 February 2016 12:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]  
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And because of that I ask, it is confusing because some lodges most part of explanations of symbolism made public. It is much more fair to tell me I may not tell you the whole explanation(and at least suggest such explanation exist) than to insist on template 4 word answers. I will try not to insist on that specifically thing for which you tell me that may violate your codex.

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Posted: 15 February 2016 02:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]  
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KmetSiman - 15 February 2016 11:09 AM

Top of the triangle refers to your view of deity, I agree whit it. But what refers in your symbolism right and left angle on the bottom of triangle? Is n’t that top on half way in isosceles triangle? what refers right tower and left tower in triptych cathedral architecture? What opposite is right door and how your learning “incorporate” that side? Why not left door? Why middle? Why you equal white fields whit black?

If answer would break your code just tell me that you may not give me answer.

And here is short and interesting chapter of the book of Milorad Pavic, I already mentioned him(famous because “Khazar dictionary”), Serbian and masonic author>>>[link deleted] here he instand of masonry put therm “intelligence service” I know that this has nothing to do with my question about interference of this two, but I think this story can shad little light on smth you mad on me when I call it your “code of silence”...

Do you have any idea why the secret word was “cherry with a gold pit” (smthg sour with valuable award, but I supose it has deeper meaning)... I think we can talk about chapter in the book of author which didn’t hide masonic symbolism, I hope you will not hit me with stones now because of that :-)

WHERE did I say the TOP of the triangle??  I said ‘the triangle’ - and that’s what I meant.

I’m not going to say anything more about it because, as John says, that would spoil things for those who DO want to join.  I YOU want to learn more, then you should follow the same path.

As for the rest of your post (and the subsequent ones), I find them very hard to follow - it’s probably a language issue, but as this is a English language site, and if you want some rational responses, can you please see what you can do to make them more readable and understandable?  Understand I’m not being argumentative, it’s just that it IS very difficult to understand what you’re trying to say.

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Posted: 15 February 2016 03:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]  
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So I just read (and at least tried to follow) this long convoluted thread. Right now my head hurts. This Forum is here to help men learn more about Freemasonry for the purpose of helping them decide if the Fraternity may be right for them—and then offer assistance in helping good men join if they express an interest in doing so. The Forum is run strictly by volunteers, who dedicate thousands of hours of their time here. But I really don’t want to waste their time just answering random questions about our beliefs. You seem like an intelligent fellow, despite the language issue. So If any one of your questions (or any others you may have) will truly help you consider whether you do or do not wish to join, then feel free to ask it. Otherwise I would prefer not to continue his line of questioning and take up any more of our volunteers time—and I will close this thread. I would like to thank you for your interest in Freemasonry, and thank our moderators and volunteers for their patience, time, and thoughtful answers.

Your move kind sir.

Bob

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Posted: 15 February 2016 04:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]  
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-I- said TOP - and that’s what I meant. :-)

jUST KIDDING:-)

Of course your view of deity(based on ancient Egyptian myths, kabbalah etc.),or maybe better to say -path to deity-,  incorporate opposites as good and evil, also represented in that cathedral tryptih towers(build by your ancestors) That include other pairs of opposites, sun and moon(not just alchemist rooted symbols), man and woman…. so top of triangle(by your learning, as I see it) include that bottom angles, so TOP(and what it represent) is triangle by itself at someway(see, there is formulation that does not exclude YOUR nor MY statement, that’s called diplomacy, you as Freemasons have to be much more skilled in that field, than I).

Our misunderstanding is more than language issue. However I agree that my English is shamefully. I also agree that is not enough to just say that. English is now “lingua franca”. But if I try to formulate questions with my rusty knowledge paired with perfectionism, that will probably divert me of asking at all(that would be great, wouldn’t it?:-). This is rarely opportunity where I use English at first place, so if you honestly want my english better, than talk with me, or dispute with me, why not? Show me that you can bear with different thoughts…. :-) Anyway I believe you can see ESSENCE of my posts, and I regard at Freemasons at least as people who think more about ESSENCE, rather than FORM.

By the way, WITH not WHIT as I wrote-that was not typo that was my ignorance of English.

And something more important about language issue to see chapter type “cherry WITH a gold pit” but whoever translated Pavic to English did not do that with Negotiorum gestio(you see, now I am to scared,even to try to find English therm:-)

Tittle of the chapter is on Serbian(origin language"VISNJA sa zlatnom kosticom” and English therm for “VISNJA” is SOUR-CHERRY not CHERRY(TRESNJA is serbian word for just cherry).

I am not just saying—- I think SOURLY(containing gold inside) is one of keyword. It would be honor for me if you rode chapter about that “secret” words ...I am sure that you will see some other, deeper meaning.

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Posted: 15 February 2016 05:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]  
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To Bob Heruska:

as I said I dont want to lie/ I am atheist. The only group excluded from deistic masonry . FROM MY CORNER of view I dont see I can ever believe in god again(like I dont see that I will ever be at 25 age again:-) ...even in model like is your architect ... model that try to override theodycea with obtaining opposites. To be honest, especially in that model of god I can not imagine to believe in. Even if it is less unrealistic than others, still it is more unattractive to me.
(To be more honest, there are numerous other reason why I dont want to join with blinded eyes to secret community channels.)

But FROM YOUR ANGLE, if you do not exclude even those with records, you should not exclude group of those who declare themselves as atheist. You should regard them also like POTENTIAL members.
Somebody told me here “I just hope that you will not need strong wake-up call, like I did” >>>so he saw himself, at some moment, as atheist(or something like that).

You see Heruska, my mentor on University was grand master of national lodge. Of course, we did not talk about masonry. I found that he was after he died. I have to say he really was willing to help.

But, that professor also was in communism time at the top of the political elite.
He would not be there if he declared himself as believer. Communist party was not atheistic, rather pretty anti-religious directed.

He also could not join deistic masonry if he did not declared “belief in supreme being”.

So there are 3 options. 1) He was lied then 2) He lied after 3) He had converted

Think about that. Or don’t.

My move is to let move to you.

It is much more consider you, and what you represent to public.
It is up to you will you increase or decrease polarization.

Do whatever you want to do.
I dont care so much, believe me.

Close this thread if you want.
Close this forum for “profanes”.
Close only door that you left opened.

But whatever you do, don’t expect from me to be indoctrinated by other’s thoughts.
And don’t expect from me to stop expressing mine’s.

Once again, you may continue to enjoy in what you think that harmony is.
But with closed doors.

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Posted: 16 February 2016 09:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]  
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I believe that although in different circumstance, it might be possible for any one of us to have a meaningful conversation with you, this forum might not be the best venue for that given the language barrier (certainly comprehension of minutae is paramount for conversations at the detail level you are attempting).

Here is what I CAN tell you:

1. The accusation of “template answers” is baseless because no participants on this forum are ever provided any such template, nor do we tell any of our volunteers HOW to answer question (which is why you see many different variations on answers at times).  So when you start to hear the same things repeated from different people, what is happening is that they are all independently saying the same thing.  That usually happens when a consensus occurs.

2. You are not going to convince us that we should allow atheists to join Freemasonry.  None of us has the ability to make that change, nor would that change be seriously undertaken, as to make such a change would alter the very foundation of the fraternity.

3. Most of us are not from your part of the world, and you have made reference to things that most of us have never even heard of and are quite unfamiliar with, so a reasonable discussion on those topics is unlikely.  When you post something, and get replies like “I don’t know what you are talking about”, you should take that as sincere.  It really means that a particular subject has fallen outside our area of knowledge (either because we just don’t know, or because it has absolutely no bearing or reference in our fraternity).

Bottom line is…I don’t think you are going to find the level of conversation you are looking for here.  This medium is quite poor for detailed discussion.  It’s great for answering questions that have fairly straight forward answers…but in your case, when we rarely even understand the question, just figuring out what you’re getting at takes several posts, at which point the writers are exhausted, frustrated, and have lost some desire to continue.

I would suggest finding a Freemason who would be willing to sit with you in person and have a conversation in your language.  I’m not one to ever send someone away…..just wanted to highlight these things in hopes that you can understand while things have become so difficult in our exchanges.  Our inability to move forward in conversation is not due primarily to our lack of will to do so.

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Posted: 16 February 2016 10:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]  
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Thanks for answer. I did not tell you that you should receive atheist. I told that from YOUR ANGLE(from my it is not so) it would be wise to look those who DECLARE themselves as atheist like category that is not fixed, and I show you some examples from your members.

If I dont let it for my self, and you and I have to let that possibility for others. I lived in whole part of world where religion was almost averruncated, and that process had done on very wrong way. By suppression. After that suppression was removed, same year you had millions of new believers(most of them was honest in their believe).

Anyway category you want to filter is abstract.
You wouldn’t receive someone who would on INITIATION DECLARE himself as atheist.
Under hypothesis that he wish to join(I dont,regardless as I look at masonic thought as one of rare which look under surface, there are numerous reason that divert me from idea to be in such organization).

But someone who want enough has to be more than honest to be prevented from that because just one answer(although hypothetically I would be such fool:-).
Are you absolutely sure that no-one ever was gave incorrect answer during initiation or that no-one ever had hidden true, initial, motives for joining?
You call that “remember on early imperfection”?

So despite intention, i think that if masonry filter any men it is not filter ATHEIST, but those who DECLARE themselves as atheist.

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Posted: 16 February 2016 12:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]  
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No, none of us can be absolutely sure that no-one has ever lied on their application - but you also have to remember that we will take people at their word .. if they’ve lied, that’s between them and their conscience - but you can be sure that if it is later discovered that they have in fact lied, they will be kicked out.  Similarly, if someone is an athiest, they will very quickly find out that Masonry is not for them as they will likely feel very uncomfortable with prayers etc.

The reality is that masons are men of their word with a religious core to their beliefs - and we expect those who want to join are of the same calibre .. and on that basis, we have to - and will - take the stance that that is who they are until their show themselves to be otherwise.  And the fact that Freemasonry has been around for 300 odd years shows we can’t be too mistaken in our stance.

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Posted: 16 February 2016 02:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]  
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You also seem to believe that we allow criminals to join us. That is not the case. If a man has a criminal record, he might be admitted but the path he will have to navigate will be long and arduous. He will have to convince the men of the lodge that he has changed his ways and has a long history showing that. If a man came to me asking to join and has a record of criminal activity, I would almost always reject him. The only exception would be a “youthful indiscretion” like possession of pot in his youth. No violent or fraudulent behavior would get by our process and we do criminal background checks on all our applicants.

Even the man with a youthful indiscretion would have a much more difficult time. Our voting for admission must be unanimous. An objection by a member of the lodge may be declared at any time before the third degree. We do not admit anyone who would bring dishonor to our Fraternity. If they lie their way through the process, they will eventually be found out and expelled from our ranks.

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God never sends us anything we can’t handle. Sometimes I wish He didn’t trust me so much. - Mother Teresa

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Posted: 17 February 2016 02:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]  
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There’s also another situation where someone will be invited to resign and I know of of a couple of instances where this has happened. The guys concerned didn’t lie on their application, but it soon became apparent that the reason for joining was to try to get some business. They were politely informed that such behaviour was unacceptable and invited to consider their continued membership. They resigned shortly afterwards as they realised that what they thought they’d get out of Masonry was completely different from their expectations.

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Posted: 20 February 2016 07:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]  
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Thanks for answers… and for chapter about “secret words”, “tabula rasa” and “punishment for future breaks of code” ... I suppose you would answer too, but that is beyond of what you may talk about… Thanks anyway for patient

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Posted: 20 February 2016 11:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]  
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I really don’t understand the question here. Sounds like a language barrier problems again. I’m willing to answer any reasonable question.

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Posted: 21 February 2016 01:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]  
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Nor me…

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Posted: 21 February 2016 04:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]  
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When you type in google”(sour)cherry with a gold pit” you will get missing chapter of Milorad Pavic book(freemason).
It is short and interesting for you I am sure. And on English of course.
I believe you see clearer meaning of that chapter, I would like if you told me where you(even personally) saw background for that story.
But, again it is perfectly ok if if explanation is in the zone where you are not comfortable to talk about.

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Posted: 21 February 2016 09:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]  
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KmetSiman - 21 February 2016 04:50 AM

When you type in google”(sour)cherry with a gold pit” you will get missing chapter of Milorad Pavic book(freemason).
It is short and interesting for you I am sure. And on English of course.
I believe you see clearer meaning of that chapter, I would like if you told me where you(even personally) saw background for that story.
But, again it is perfectly ok if if explanation is in the zone where you are not comfortable to talk about.

While I’m sure Mr. Pavic is a fine author and I’ll take your word that he is a Freemason you must understand that no matter what he says he does not speak for all of Freemasonry. If I have time, I may read what you have directed us to but there is no reference to sour cherries with gold pits in Masonry that any of us are aware of.

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God never sends us anything we can’t handle. Sometimes I wish He didn’t trust me so much. - Mother Teresa

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