Upon studying freemasonry and certain aspects of religions and the so-called occult, I came a cross an interesting idea, namely that Freemasons were involved with the Golden Dawn.
Is there any relevance to this or are my sources mistaken ?

No relevance what so ever. I even had to look it up. Nothing like this has ever been mentioned in Freemasonry that I have seen, heard or read. Makes great fodder for conspiracy enthusiast though.

I guess so.
Any connection i did find was that they “borrowed” the degree system from Freemasons and the Scottish Rite.This can bee seen more easily in a spin-off fraternal organization named OTO—the most relevant title being common with freemasonry being : Knight of the East & West .
I’m not sure if the information is relevant, as anyone can post anything on wikipedia so I can just say I’m God if I want to.
Thanks anyway for the information.

Alin

Thank you for your continued interest.

But I must say, the Internet is really something else.

At the risk of sounding controlling, I would like to remind our many, many visitors that this Forum is dedicated to helping men learn how to become Freemasons. While there are many, many, many organizations that have “spun off” from Freemasonry or used Freemasonry as an example—especially in the later 19th century and early 20th century (the Knights of Columbus is a perfect example), these organizations are really irrelevant to the purpose of this Website.

Freemasonry in America is in the midst of celebrating a milestone 275th anniversary. Since 1733—more than 40 years before our nation’s independence—we’ve been basically working to promote greatness in men. I’m trying to think of any other organization (outside of a church) that’s lasted that long. And I would prefer not to muck up the process unless it is truly edifying to that process.

Now there’s a question where the Internet might really come in handy. In the meantime, I would prefer that we not have random links on this Site to unassociated sites. Hope you don’t mind.

Thanks.

Bob Heruska
Forum Moderator
Boston, MA

Without posting a link, I’ll simply mention that the website for the Grand Lodge of British Columbia & the Yukon has very good information in general for prospective Masonic candidates as well as Brethren, including a number of entries and essays regarding many of the “redheaded stepchildren” of Freemasonry such as the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and the O.T.O., as well as the actual or purported Masonic membership of their founders.

Any connection i did find was that they “borrowed” the degree system from Freemasons and the Scottish Rite.This can bee seen more easily in a spin-off fraternal organization named OTO—the most relevant title being common with freemasonry being : Knight of the East & West .
I’m not sure if the information is relevant, as anyone can post anything on wikipedia so I can just say I’m God if I want to.
Thanks anyway for the information.

The degree system was borrowed from the rosicrucians, it is based on quabalistc and alchemical systems, I think you borrowed a degree from the rosicrucians, the degree of the rose cross.

the rosicrucians came out of the late 1600s and so I find it doubtful they borrowed anything from masonry.

The OTO is an interesting organization in that it was refounded by a mason, though I’ve heard a couple times, crowley’s regularity in something is disputed, but that probably did have some effect on him, however the OTO can’t be written off so simply, it doesn’t emulate anyone, it is one of the only thelemic organizations there is. It definately isn’t trying to emulate freemasonry.

And the golden dawn was founded by samuel mathers, who was a mason. There was some influence, but again, it is based upon rosicrucian philosophy, alchemy hermetecism and the like more than anything else.

Accompanying the scottish rite was the book “morals and dogma” and it contained this passage.

“He who desires to attain to the understanding of the Grand Word and the possession of the Great Secret, ought carefully to read the Hermetic philosophers, and will undoubtedly attain initiation, as others have done; but he must take, for the key of their allegories, the single dogma of Hermes, contained in his table of Emerald, and follow, to class his acquisitions of knowledge and direct the operation, the order indicated in the Kabalistic alphabet of the Tarot. “

Which should help in understanding why the hermetic order of the golden dawn is so tied to the freemasons.

astralmagickian - 08 July 2008 11:24 AM

Any connection i did find was that they “borrowed” the degree system from Freemasons and the Scottish Rite.This can bee seen more easily in a spin-off fraternal organization named OTO—the most relevant title being common with freemasonry being : Knight of the East & West .
I’m not sure if the information is relevant, as anyone can post anything on wikipedia so I can just say I’m God if I want to.
Thanks anyway for the information.

The degree system was borrowed from the rosicrucians, it is based on quabalistc and alchemical systems, I think you borrowed a degree from the rosicrucians, the degree of the rose cross.

the rosicrucians came out of the late 1600s and so I find it doubtful they borrowed anything from masonry.

The OTO is an interesting organization in that it was refounded by a mason, though I’ve heard a couple times, crowley’s regularity in something is disputed, but that probably did have some effect on him, however the OTO can’t be written off so simply, it doesn’t emulate anyone, it is one of the only thelemic organizations there is. It definately isn’t trying to emulate freemasonry.

And the golden dawn was founded by samuel mathers, who was a mason. There was some influence, but again, it is based upon rosicrucian philosophy, alchemy hermetecism and the like more than anything else.

Accompanying the scottish rite was the book “morals and dogma” and it contained this passage.

“He who desires to attain to the understanding of the Grand Word and the possession of the Great Secret, ought carefully to read the Hermetic philosophers, and will undoubtedly attain initiation, as others have done; but he must take, for the key of their allegories, the single dogma of Hermes, contained in his table of Emerald, and follow, to class his acquisitions of knowledge and direct the operation, the order indicated in the Kabalistic alphabet of the Tarot. “

Which should help in understanding why the hermetic order of the golden dawn is so tied to the freemasons.

Actually, the Golden Dawn and Crowley’s A.’.A.’. use the Rosicrucian degree system. While they have - since 1919 - disavowed any conflict with the jurisdiction of Grand Lodges (and have not, since then, claimed to confer Masonic degrees), the O.T.O. certainly does have a degree structure derived from Freemasonry: http://oto-usa.org/init.html

The basic pattern of the “Man of Earth” triad follows the Blue Lodge, with the IV° being an adaptation of the Royal Arch degree. The degrees of the “Lovers” Triad are a selection of adaptations of degrees from the Scottish, York, and Memphis-Mizraim (or Yarker’s “Ancient & Primitive") Rites.

Meanwhile, the Minerval degree and several of the “Hermit” triad have titles taken or adapted from Weishaupt’s Illuminati grades, which were themselves based on Masonic rites.

I’m not criticizing the O.T.O. for this; I’m just stating their own history as published in the Equinox. The best resource I can think of for how this evolved from an originally Masonic system into a structure that was clearly separated from it’s Masonic roots is the book Panic in Detroit by Dr. Richard Kaczynski.

"Actually, the Golden Dawn and Crowley’s A.’.A.’. use the Rosicrucian degree system.”

Thats what I said, but the rest of it I didn’t previously know and so thank you.

astralmagickian - 11 July 2008 10:33 AM

“Actually, the Golden Dawn and Crowley’s A.’.A.’. use the Rosicrucian degree system.”

Thats what I said, but the rest of it I didn’t previously know and so thank you.

You’re quite welcome.

Just to be clear; I was distinguishing between the O.T.O. & the A.’.A.’., which are separate entities, with separate degree systems. The O.T.O. is what I described in my previous post as having a degree structure taken directly from several Masonic Rites (and which had, at at early point in it’s existence, claimed to “make Masons"), whereas the A.’.A.’. is just Crowley’s modification of the Golden Dawn system, which, it seems, is what you were discussing.

But even the so-called “Rosicrucian” degree system of the latter organizations is Masonic in origin, as it was adapted for the HOGD from the structure of the S.R.I.A. The provenance of this degree system is unknown, except that it is one of the many oddities adopted by prominent Victorian Masons from the imagination of Kenneth Mackenzie.

We should have a section of this forum devoted to the many conspiracies that Freemasonry has been accused of. I think we should get all the accusations out on the table and debunk them. The frustrating part of all this is two-fold.

1) Conspiracy theorists spin everything they say. They come to whatever conclusions they want. Most of time, this is done with no fact or reason of basis to support their beliefs. Basically, they create their own reality that justifies their own beliefs.

2) People actually believe them and consider it truth.

The fact is, people inherently fear what they do not understand. In the end, we are a noble organization built on doing the right thing.

Brother Jacob

I have been off on vacation for a couple of weeks, but thanks for the thoughtful posts.

We are in fact in the process of revamping the Site for the fall to have more “categories” for questions and make it easier to navigate.

I do think that many young men who are looking into Freemasonry are also looking at the many conspiracy theories—so it certainly makes sense to have a section that helps us address them. Stay tuned.

Bob Heruska
Forum Administrator